Did Motherhood Change Your Identity?

TOPICS IN THIS EPISODE

• How does Motherhood Impacts our Identity?
• What can we do to change our Identity?

HELPFUL  LINKS

• About the Host  - Ela Senghera 
• Start Your Transformation - Book Here
• Audiobook   Finding Love
• Get Free Brochure  -Be True You in Your Relationship
• About the Guest  Leyla Okhai

Transcript

Ela: Hi, Layla. Welcome to the show. 

Layla: Hi Ela. Thanks so much for having me. 

Ela: No worries. Layla, can you tell us a few words about yourself at the beginning? 

Leyla: Yeah, sure. So I know you've sort of done a little introduction to me, but,  I'm Layla. I run diverse minds and we're all about creating positively productive, happy, equal,  mentally healthy and equal workplaces through training, coaching, and consultancy. My background is in higher education, working in race equity. My last job before starting my business was head of the equality diversity and inclusion centre and Imperial college London. 

Ela: Sounds great. So you work with organizations, um, to help them ensure that their employees are mentally healthy and productive. Based on your experience what are the most common issues that are related, to mental health and diversity in the workplace? 

Leyla: Yeah. So I think, I guess there are a few things. I suppose one is that people don't often put mental wellbeing and diversity together, but we know that if you can't, if you don't feel like you are an environment that values difference, however you want to define that difference, your mental health is probably going to struggle and you're not gonna feel great. I think as well, all the initiatives that work big, especially larger workplaces have. Considering like policies, basic policies, you have to have like parental leave or,  adoption, leave surrogacy, leave bereavement policies. They're great, but they're the bare minimum. And what do I mean by that? I mean that they are often shaped from one viewpoint and one lens.  Having different perspectives is often missing. So I think that's another area. And I think the third area is that people just often don't see it as relevant. So you'll get people who are really keen. And they are, you know, wanting to do the training, wanting to be in space. Other people  might give it a go.  And then the other sort of third of people who just think it's a load of nonsense. And I think getting those people on board and that, you know, they can be from all areas in a business is tricky because they, you know, It's difficult to get those people on board, because if they really feel that way, how do you actually change? You know, as the phrase goes, hearts and minds, how do you really enable people to see that this is a value? If their standpoint is this is superfluous and nothing to do with my job. 

Ela:  Was diversity and inclusion, always part, always something you were passionate about?Where did the idea come from ?

Layla: So that's a really good question. My commitment to this area has really been because my whole life I've been excluded from things. So from the playground. There was a lot of bullying at school. Bullying has been a bit of a theme running through my life. I've always been excluded. I've never really been included in things. So I suppose that that is really where the main driver is and to know how isolating and horrible that feeling is. And actually, I don't think it's necessary. I know there are probably people listening, thinking, well, you know, in terms of social dominance, theories and social norm theories, there is a place to have in groups and out-groups, but I think the damage that it does is so severe.  Ive had a lived experience of racism and everyone's lived experience of racism is slightly different. I think what's driven me to this area.  I wanted to work with it and wanted to see changes.

Ela: Wow. First of all, I'm sorry to hear that. I have to say I have never been a victim of bullying, but I can imagine it's such difficult situation to be in. And one that effects you for the rest of your life in terms of confidence, self-esteem and many other things. That is a massive reason. Well done you for transforming your life in and getting into something you are so passionate about changing. Today we want to talk about identity,  and what identity means to us and what it is and what impact it has on our life. Can you share your view on what our identity is? Because I think many of us are familiar with the word, but they never really have time to reflect. What does it actually mean to me? 

Layla: It's a really big question, isn't it? And I think this kind of terms of identity politics has really come up. And I, I don't know if I like that term. I think it, again, goes back to this point about inclusion and exclusion and how people are feeling based on who they feel they are. So that could be things that we can see, like gender identity, skin, color, hair color, cause. You know, that's another one height, and things that we can't see in terms of sexual orientation or someone to neuro divergent characteristics. So, you know, identity is very, very complex. There's lots of different definitions about it, but I think it is about how we view ourselves, how we view the things that the law appreciates, how the things that also identity can change. It's a bit like culture. Some bits of us are static. Some bits of us aren't. It also depends on identity. Doesn't it? On our relationships, where we live, where we grew up, how we grew up, sort of trauma. 

Ela: That's the society around us. The community, right? 

Layla: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, the different aspects of ourself that are developed,  and how, you know, we might get into a particular music style and that will really shape us as a teenager. And that will really shape our identity. It could be about religion. It could be around, something traumatic that happened and that reshapes our moral compass. It could be that, you know, we might all know people that grew up quite wealthy and then suddenly their family lost money and that's gonna impact on your identity and how you see yourself. So I think, it's the aspects of yourself that you feel are really important to you that you want to see reflected somehow. I think it's very closely linked to values and I think it's very closely linked to culture as well. 

Ela: It's a very interesting topic.  To a certain degree, we have an impact on that identity and to a certain degree we don't... So this is where the narrative,  identity comes in. What is it? Can you tell us what narrative identity is and what impact it has on our mental wellbeing? 

Layla: Yeah. So narrative identity, is linked to the things that we might feel are moveable and immovable the kind of ever evolving story of ourselves and how we make sense out of our lives in terms of,  how do I identify? Sometimes we might think of it as, maybe we move somewhere new and suddenly we think this doesn't really fit with me. I don't feel at home here. We might try and do things  and integrate ourselves into this community or this area. And it just, it just doesn't feel right. It is a field in psychology that investigates the values of stories and storytelling in giving meaning to. Individual experiences and shaping your memory of past events, understanding the present and projections of future events and how this defines themselves and their lives. So that's the kind of psychological definition and you do get narrative therapy as well, sort of based on this. I think in terms of our mental wellbeing, we need to be able to tell our own story in a way that works for us. So whether, through an official talk or an event, but also just being able to share our story in informal ways, in a way that feels, very genuine and,  freeing for us as individuals.

Ela: And that is that, that power of self-expression right?  You can define that as self-expressionI found, personally, that when I understood who I became (when I became a mom), I realised how my identity has changed, and how the way I perceive myself and the world around me has changed. Only then I started recovering from the overwhelm of motherhood and the harsh reality of what motherhood can be like. And that was like, for me, that was like the first, steps towards my mental wellbeing and, creating a new, some somewhat new identity for myself. Deciding who I want to be, which aspects of my identity, of my beliefs I'm happy with and which aspects I'm not so happy with and, and what I will not  let define me. I personally find it a very interesting topic because,  it's very connected to our identity the way we perceive ourselves, the way we talk about ourselves when others don't listen.  These are like the fundamentals of our mental wellbeing. The more positive we feel about ourself,  the stronger, the confidence and, and the healthier self-esteem. I'm really glad we are talking about this today. I hope this will be helpful for our listeners. So what are the main factors that you would say really determine our identity?  

Layla: There are a few elements to it. It can be our personality. It could be even whether we have an extra preference, an introvert preference, whether we, say it like it is whether we, you know, whether we are more diplomatic, for example, it could be which groups we want to associate ourselves with. So first of all, how we define ourselves, then we've got a social identity,  the groups that we want to identify with, how we want to be seen as well by others.  There's, I guess, social categorisation, and this is difficult to do, I think nowadays,  in a sense, cause I guess there are lots of categories, but it could be political, social categorisation. It could be the way you look. It could be where you live. Whether you are a parent or not a parent.  For me, I'm not a parent. Those of us who have chosen not to have children when you are child free by choice are obviously, different to those, who haven't chosen not to have children. And I kind of think you have to fight back around how people categorise you when you don't have children. They say things like: you'll change your mind. Poor you, you are selfish and all these things that happen and how you feel you have to stick up for yourself as well. 

Ela: Absolutely. But, you know, I really struggled with identifying with how people started perceiving me when I became a mom. I found that that's nothing like me. So even being referred to as a mom, I didn't identify with that. I found it very difficult to connect with other moms and I'm quite open about it. I felt really lonely and isolated when I became a mum. I only then realise how extremely ambitious I am and how desperate I am to use my brain again, to put it quite bluntly. So I felt that, the lack of those mature adult conversations about art and music and travel and work was really putting a massive shadow over my mental health when I became a mum.  I quickly realised that I can't talk about those topics in the playground with other mums. Of course I'm generalising now, or, or maybe I'm telling the story from my own perspective, but I hope that by opening and, and saying all this, I'm going to help someone else out there by making them feel like they're not the only one. Because,  there are other women who struggle with, like we know with the shift of that identity with becoming that new person and having a huge amount of responsibility suddenly put on your shoulders.  And you try to make sense out of shifting priorities and all that. It's completely overwhelming for most women. And that identity is a big part that comes with the motherhood package. 

Layla: Yeah, I think, some of it you've touched on is actually about society's expectation and I've got friends who've said they've had a baby and immediately people say to them when you're having the next one? So this idea that you're almost a baby factory and that this is what,  you haven't even had time to go home and maybe take a shower and sit down and process what your body and your mind have been through. And people are asking you these questions, which is crazy, isn't it?  A lot of people are caregivers before their parents, in, you know, in different ways. Yeah. But I guess being responsible for a tiny little breathing thing. Um, and also to remember, I guess I'm talking about biological, we're talking about biological motherhood. here's lots of different ways to be a mother or a parent aren't there. So there's adoption that might be through surrogacy. It might be fostering. So you might consider yourself a foster mother, a foster parent. You might be in a same sex relationship or you might, your partner might be non-binary. Or you might be a single parent through choice or not through choice. So there's so much to it. Isn't there. And I think it is this idea that you have to be this perfect whole person for your children. You can't have any flaws. The pressure's really on,  and there's one kind of motherhood. So I think that this really does impact people, because it makes them feel that they're not good enough. They're not adequate. I'm meant to do all these things. I'm meant to be eat healthily, go out, go running exercise, look after my kids, do this and do that and, you know, get some sleep and look after myself and it's just not possible.  I think it's, it's almost, it can feel like a bit of a dumping ground, that you have to be everything towards people when you're a mother and good luck if you need to be there for yourself. 

Ela: Yeah, I've spoken about this in one other podcast episode called the myth of a perfect parent, uh, where I discussed this with Dr. Andy Wiener  who says there is no such thing as a perfect mother. There is just a good enough mother and we have to accept it. And the sooner we accept it the healthier we will become. So that's, that's interesting, isn't it? Yet we tend to. Completely,  exhaust yourselves, trying to live up to other people's expectations. And I actually read in another book, um, called '' Complete Guide to Stress Management'' that the worst mental health is in married women. What about unconscious bias? So we know that our identity is often influenced by unconscious bias. And our self image is more often than not based on the beliefs we have formed from our young age,  in our childhood. What can you tell us about unconscious bias and its link with identity? How does that affect our identity? 

Layla: Yes and I think  maybe one way to think about it is through the principle of schemas, so we have selfs schemas,- what do we believe we're capable of? What do we believe we can do? What do we believe we can't do?  I think that really has a big part to play. So if you are told you can do anything or be anything from a young age, you're likely to believe that.  If you're told you're you are, you are worthless and you won't amount too much. It's not that will be the case, but it will contribute to someone not having very high expectations of themselves. I think that has a huge part to play.  What we see around us and that,  women are often still told, even though we're out of the 1950s, that  you should be a mother and a wife first. And I think we see that don't we as women?  There are lots of resources and I'm sure some people would challenge me on this, but generally speaking, lots of resources on IVF to become a mother, yet, there is very little to no resource when it comes to menstrual health. When it comes to it's like,  you can have a hysterectomy or you can carry on with your life. How is this area of medicine not progressed when it comes to menopause journeys? When it comes to specific gynecological cancers. They're very underfunded with the exception of breast cancer, but gynaecological cancer is really underfunded. So it is interesting that,  that kind of idea of women, a mother and a wife first and medically that's represented and yet we have so many other conditions that impact fertility or not even just fertility, someone's quality of life. And the percentage of research and dedication that goes into that is absolutely tiny compared with other conditions. So that kind of belief in the way it's, it is threaded through. And I think it's very, very difficult. And I think therefore to say, I do want to be a mother or I don't want to be a mother is challenging. And the kind of, you know, well, what kind of mother do you wanna be? Or how come you don't wanna be a mother? Or how could you, you know, that's not someone said ''It's not natural to not want to be a mother''. And in some ways, I guess it isn't in some ways, I guess it isn't. I mean, we are, I don't agree with the way she said it, but if she'd said it to me in a different way, I think it would've had a very different flavor, but in some ways I.  Speaking from my own opinion, it isn't cuz we are meant to be appropriate as a species. Aren't we? But yet if we've evolved so much, technologically, why is it still so difficult to have this conversation?

Ela: There's an incredible amount of social pressure behind this. I feel from every angle, our parents, our families, our friends getting married, having babies. And it's like this fear of missing out. Many people just have kids because of the fear of missing out. Because it is a social norm to have kids. Yet you look around, how many, I'm sorry to say this, but how many really, truly happy parents do you see? How many parents do you see that where a woman is,  really fulfilled in a marriage and as a mother? How many relationships, marriages do you see where women feel supported by her partner and are encouraged to go back to work and are happy and have the sort of conditions at work and flexibility where they can thrive? I think there is an absolutely enormous gap between the social expectation of us becoming mothers and what help is available to us once we become a mother, because the help that is available to us is practically zero. So it is so fundamental that we introduce mental health awareness,  how motherhood can change our identity, what can go wrong? And when it does, what can we do? And of course it's not all black and white, there isn't always a simple solution for it. But, I think slowly breaking that taboo topic is step one. Would you agree with that? 

Layla: And yeah, I guess that,  this whole idea that you have to be happy and it should be amazing and everything should be perfect. And I think, people have said to me, in fact a very dear friend who had twins and she said ''you did really well knowing that it wasn't for you, but I just didn't realise how hard it would be. No one tells you.''  And I thought, but they kind of do, but maybe they tell you when it's too late. And she said, I just saw everyone around me coping. So I thought I could cope. And I just have to say that to myself. It's okay. I'm not gonna get things perfect. And that's how I get through it. I'm not gonna be this perfect parent. I'm gonna be as good as I can be. And that's all I can do, but that's, that's in most societies that's not seen as good enough, is it?  I think particularly in the west or the global north, there is a lot of isolation in motherhood. Isn't there? And I think other communities in other, you know, in the global south and, there is potentially more collectivism around it. There is that phrase, ''it takes a village to raise a child'' -  because it really does. You need those networks. But we're so distant from those networks now. Partly cuz maybe we choose to move. We have to move partly because people can't afford house prices, maybe where they grew up. There's again, there's so much to it. There's that economic point that you just made? People don't really talk about money. So no, you know, to say, you're allowed to say I can't afford something, but to say, actually ''I'm really, really struggling. There's no way I can afford my childcare. So I'm gonna have to give up my job'' - openly like that, It's just not something that's done. Is it? 

Ela: Or imagine saying actually after having my first child, I discovered it's not for me. I don't enjoy being a mom. So I'm not gonna have a second one. Imagine saying that to someone, especially another woman.  it's very hard. 

Layla: Yeah, absolutely. I know people who will say that to me as a non-parent, but yeah, that they say it to someone who was a parent. I don't know. 

Ela: It's very different. So is there anything just to summarise this topic, is there anything in terms of our identity and ask women that we can do to proactively protect our identity or change or shift? Certain aspects of our identity that we are not happy with?

Layla:  I think maybe the first thing is for people to sort of unpick what their identity is, because often we don't take time to do that. Do we? We kind of like, I am me, I am my name. And absolutely your name is totally part of your identity, but what does that really mean to you? So I think maybe it's thinking about what are the things that are totally immovable for you that are really important. So your values, your non-negotiables are things that are really core to who you are. Then I think, think about the things that you like to, associate with. So is it music, Is it people, is it reading whatever it is, is some of it will be activities. Some of it might be lifestyle. So I don't know, you know, if it's organic living or if it's kind of living in the moment or slow living. And then their attributes, like your gender identity,  your race, ethnicity, and culture, where you grew up, which you can't really change and how you want to integrate that into who you are. So I think it's those three layers. And then once you've explored that you can think about, oh, this has happened, my identity might need to shift. Or what are the stories I'm telling myself about myself? Or, you know, are there things that I'd like to share with other people that maybe they never would guess what they know about. So I think by doing that and, and really being able to explore that and feeling quite confident in that that really helps our mental wellbeing. Cause we know our parameters and our boundaries and also what we want to share and discuss with other people. 

Ela: Yes. Do you also feel that knowing your values and, and staying true to your values helps. Do you think this is something that is really that closely interlinked here with this topic? 

Layla: I feel it is because I feel like your values are your guiding light and your sort of your identities, how you see yourself and how others might see you as well. So if you don't know them or you've not taken time to do that, it might feel that your identity is a bit scrambled. It doesn't mean that you don't have an identity if you don't do a values exercise. But you'll find that your values and identity are probably very closely aligned and in sync, which will help your wellbeing in terms of thinking about how you want to live your life and what's gonna bring you joy. What's gonna make you feel well? What things you need to concentrate on your day to day to feel mentally optimum. 

Ela: Yeah. Great. Well, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much, Layla. In case any of our listeners want to find out more about you, where is the best place to find you? 

Layla:  So I have a weekly podcast called the Diverse Minds podcast. You can check that out anywhere that you listen to your podcast from, my website www.diverseminds.co.uk, and,  I'm on LinkedIn, my name and also there's a diverse minds page. And my handle on Twitter and Facebook are at Diverse Minds UK.